Ok fair enough...get an HD Nighttrain! Or a BMW K1300s.

I'll have to say this about all the engineering I've seen working for GM and now Isuzu. Germans are the smartest, but the Japanese work the longest, but they are not as intelligent as the Americans when it comes to intelligent design. They can, however, manufacturer stuff to a T and repeat it with little flaw. Americans are intelligent, but they get seriously hampered by cost reduction.

I've worked with Bosch and Siemens on a few fuel control and diagnostic controls projects. They have their shit down and they work hard.

Not to mention lazy???? :whistle:

Matt's neighbor rides a HD from the 70's.... it runs just fine. But I still wouldnt buy one.....

:rockwoot:

See I told y'all - resistance is futile... :rofl:

I don't necessarily think Americans are lazy moreso than just bored at work. Japanese can be just as lazy or bored if you will, esp. the office workers.

No Doubt... I spent half of last night research'n them... read'n up... and of course look'n at aftermarket stuff :lol:

no... I think what killed Detroit long ago but they've been too stubborn to let go is the Unions. people getting paid $40/hr for a job that should EARN no more than $20/hr.

They drove the prices up... and because their work ethic sucked why pay attention to quality of work. the result is the Domestic market's reputation for sub par vehicles that last (with a few exceptions) about half as long as the Imported counterparts.

Gas... you may be right... the Ford/GM/Christler/HD 09's may all be VERY VERY much better than the 01's... even the 05's... but I still think they're behind the power curve with the imports... namely the Japanese.

You know it. This is the guy I used to ride with all the time. He's really the only guy I rode with. I say rode b/c he's been in West Chester PA for college for the last few years.

I am getting a GS of some variety. Looking for a 05 1150 or maybe a new 800. I need to find one of each for the wife to try out which is comfortable for her to ride with me. I would rather the 800, but I want her to take trips with me. It's still possible to rail a BMW. I have seen it done.

I wouldn't say Americans are more intelligent than the Asians, I would say they are more (I don't know if innovative is the right word I am looking for, maybe creative) creative. I would say the average Asian engineer is much more detail focused than average American engineer.

As for Jap cars reliability going down in comparison to American cars reliability on the rise. I don't think that's true because more and more Jap cars are actually being built HERE and not in Japan. I would say it's just more of our own incompetence and the japanese cars are losing their reliability because of us instead of the american cars increasing in reliability.

Quote of the day!!! :lol


I think that sums it up for the comparo. I love VWs and would be one of the only overseas cars I would consider buying. Well that or a Mazda being most of them are build a mile from my house and mostly owned by Fords.

Take notice I have not knocked the rice anything besides the fact that I think they copy the ideas of HDs and not as fast many of the hd's. But you won't hear me knock their realiability. Hondas are die hard and suz/kaws/yams try to copy.


I can agree with you on the unions. I have many union buds that work at the big 3 and their suppliers. But understand this... its not the workers or even the unions that have drove these car companies into the ground. Its the miss management by corperate.

And very much so on the vast improvement. My 04 F150 was HUGE HUGE better than my previous ones. But the 09 are even more huge of improvements. It is crazy how much better the american cars are now. I could not believe how quiet the 09 Malibu is inside. I'm talking what I percieve as lincoln/cadillac quiet. I do disagree on the power curve. When the malibu as an example is getting 169hp from a inline 4, I would say american cars are on par EASY!

Finally (at least for this post), Trip... the BDM while uglier than hell will probably be a fine piece of german. I can't wait to see it. Hopefully you'll have it by July!

Me too, I want to have the cbr ready to go next week for the auction block. Hopefully it will sell fast and I can start seriously looking for the BMW.

Gas, There maybe some miss management (I hate what GM's bean counters do to their product), But how do you manage expenses when you have to much capacity and you can't reduce it because the Unions won't let them?
And how do you fault a company for building product that's selling well in those plants, even if you know you're more susceptible to say an unexpected spike in gas prices.

actually I think alot of the engineering differences stems from the asians being a more frugal/necessity country versus americans being of the more is better idealogy. It makes for very different design ideas.

Shit.... $40??? Honda workers make $40 an hour. American brand workers make damn near $60 an hour....... :panic:

I didn't say all, I'm saying most. You don't fit the typical HD rider profile. I have respect for a few HD riders, but that is such a small percentage of the total number of riders out there. Am I pointing out the stereotypes? Absolutely.

If I was allowed a camera at work, I'd take a pic of the HD riders compared to the SS riders. All the HD riders here are old and fat and wear novelty brain buckets as a helmet. You can spot them very easily.... It IS an image thing. There is even one guy here that smokes a pipe while he rides... :td:

I know, the whole damn thing is a house of cards


Just givin ya shit. You left it open :wtfru:

by power curve I hope you know I wasn't talking about HP... just talking about the power curve of reliablility. I don't think toyota or honda ever put out a motor with jaw dropping power... they've always been more longevity based motors. ones that are broken in at 100k... and not broken down.

I will say that American Cars are getting there... making 100k isn't an automatic sale and a 50% knock off the blue book price anymore... but it's 2009.... Toyota and Honda have had motors that did that for 30 years.

I'm amazed the amount of HP the domestic market is putting in some of these cars... 400hp? damn.... and they look great too... but fuck me if I'm gonna spend my money on a truck or car that's 5 years later I've lost 10 grand off the price. shit look up a 04 Tacoma 4x4 extra-cab. still HIGH teens in many markets... and that is an older body style.

Shit my brother ordered an 06 Tundra Limited... paid 32k for it... bought a house and couldn't afford both... was able to sell it a year later with 20k on the ticker for 32k... he literally had it for sale for 3hrs. Granted Tundra's aren't the best full size pickup (especially his year) for work... but it's got the Toyota name and rep....


but ehh... enough about that....

I want the fuck'n 800GS... my damn Xterra needs to sell QUICK!

Trip, I can honestly say I understand what youre talking about, I have way more fun tooling around on stoopid random bikes than I do on my own (especially the cheap ones that I'm not afraid to wreck) like a 250 rebel, kz440, or Daryls 50. Hell if I could have ridden that 50 all day I would have.

Are you suggesting we compare the R&D of Harley, who haven't been innovative in any way since long before I was born, to the Japanese companies who live on the bleeding edge of motorcycle development?

When does that Harley GP bike come out again?

EDIT:

Oh, and Trip...

Quit being a little girl and get on the gas.

Harley Researches their target demographic and Designs new t-shirts and bandanas.

well Im man enough to admit that this thread has been taken over by people far more intelligent and more experienced that me. I know better than to try to argue with Gas, because he has forgotten more shit than Ill ever know!!! I take his word to be the gospel truth. I just haven't had the chance to swing a leg over to many of the higher priced HDs. Ive had a leg over several but most were pretty well modded and that could have contributed to their poor ride quality. I just could never see why a HD went for nearly twice what say a vulcan would go for. Perhaps theres something to it that I don't know.

As far as american engineering vs. others I still think we have some of the best engineering on the planet. ya we have our flaws but If I have the choice Ill buy american if at all possible. To bad it seems no american company is really interested in jumping into the sport bike market aside from a few buells. Ive only ever driven american cars and trucks, ive taken 5 vehicles over 150k with NO major issues, and one truck over 310,000 miles!!! she was a beast. Still runnin when I got rid of her but the body had completely rusted off her. My current truck is bout to turn over 160k and still runnin strong. my buddy has always driven hondas and while they do run just as long he seems to constantly be getting something little fixed.

I do know a little about unions, long story short they SUCK!!! Im not holding them single handedly responsible for the fall of detroit, they were a big part of it. The vast majority of unions protect lazy workers and drive the cost of production WAY up!

Hey I am no mechanic but I will tell you this... you see a great deal more when you start taking parts off at 3 feet in the air on the lift.

And ebbs... I'll put my 280k 1991 Pontiac 6000 LE up to that idea that american cars aren't realiable. Never did anything to the motor or trans besides new fluids.

HD isn't and prob never will make a GP bike. That's not what they are trying to do either.
I don't know all the details, but HD has made a lot of changes/inovations in the last 20+ years. Trust me, a 1989 HD is not the same as a 2009 HD.

As for the jap bikes... compare the first models to HD's of years prior. There were a LOT of similarities. who copied who?

ok... that's one... and I'm sure we could find 100 people with experiences like yours... but 1000 next to the 20000+ you'll find with Toyota or Honda...

there's a reason why domestic's have the rep they do. sure... they may be working to get rid of that... still along way to go.... sorry

Notice I still have not said anything bad about say Honda realiability.

Neighbor back home had a 83 F250 with a 351 in it. Beat the shit out of it, farm truck. Bought it new, NEVER changed the oil. Just the filter, every 10K. I know it hit 280,000 before I went off to college. He still has it and drives it, not sure on current mileage.

I love honda I have had 2 go over 260,000 when I sold them still running.

BUT I've had a 91 s-10 that had 248,000 when I sold it.(original)
A 95 Isuzu Rodeo with 268,000 when I sold it(only replaced starter)
My mustang had 243,000 on it as well (but it was torn apart from racing and adding parts on every weekend lol so guess it does not count)

I have a 2000 Jetta with 268,000 miles on it right now
My 04 Ram has 103,000 miles no problems thus far
02 Nissan Altima at 154,000 only had to rebuild alternator.

and I wasn't saying you were... I was just saying that domestics aren't on par with the imports in reliability... and there's still quite a gap imo... but I do think the imports are getting worse... dunno if domestics are getting better though

Trip, if you do end up picking up a GS and it's used, ask if the Final Drive has been replaced - they have been known to have issues from what I've heard and fail at the most in-opportune times...

That the 1200. I think I am avoiding that gen and getting a 1150.

ah. I thought I saw you mention that you were looking at a 1200 somewhere

He was origionally.

Let's get back talking about the gs's

I thought we were :lol:

Yeah I talked with people and they advised me to stay away from the 1200. Said look for a 1150 if I want a tank

I hear ya. Imports aren't getting worse but domestic has made big leaps in that dept over the past years. I'm saying the gap is closing in real quick!

Looking at some of the new machines on the floor at the local HD dealership, I'd say that gap is closing REALLY fast.

I mean it on cars and bikes.

hey Trip, get a HD Night Rod those are sick. ... and comfy

I rode one. They are seriously bad ass.

Yea but as an adventure tourer....not so much.

though a conversion would be pretty freakin' sweet...

I came sorta kinda close to buying this down at two when we were changing Tommys tire. The price was right, and I would have ridden the shit out of it.

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...513212154b.jpg

My brother bought a brand new 2005 Honda Accord EX with a V-6 Auto. The transmission failed at 70k as with many many other Honda automatics. Honda does NOT have reliable automatics.

Toyota had a lawsuit against them which claimed thier Sienna engines built up sludge prematurely (all under 40k). They also had engines fail due to this as well.

I've owned many many GM makes and not one left me stranded vs. a Honda that would not start.

Me thinks you have -0- data other than hear say to back up ur claims. Typical of people believing that anything from over the pond must be better.

except for the 7 toyota trucks that I've had that all had over 150k... 5 had over 200k... and two over 500k. never had an issue with any other than my last one which I'm strongly believing was the fault of the dealership who did the maintenance.

I don't believe everything from overseas is better... fuck'n mitsubishi sucks. can't stand their shit vehicles... same with kia, hyundi.

for the record I've owned... 4 domestic vehicles... a GMC Jimmy, Chevy S10 Pickup, an S10 Blazer, and a GMC Sierra 2500. My parents have owned a Chevy Astro van, Ford Aerostar, Ford F150, International (shit can't remember the model but it was like a suburban) Chevy Suburban.

The Jimmy didn't cause me any issues other than going through two alternators... but I sold it to my parents cause I wanted a pickup... and they had nothing but issues.... a weld on the lower Right A arm braking, head gasket blowing, Transfer case going, transmission loosing 3rd gear randomly... and a few other electrical issues.

I could go through and list the laundry list of issues my parents had with all their vehicles... all with less than 100k on them.

mine well with the exception of the Jimmy... mine were all over 100k but under 120... and were deteriorating FAST.

of the Toyota Truck's I've owned... I've had to replace the timing chain on 4 of them (preventive maintenance) and 2 head gaskets... one at 220k... the other at 375k two different trucks.

I've never owned a honda... but there's a reason why they have the rep they do. I've know MANY people who have over 150K on their accord's, and civics... with no issues...

I know very few who've owned domestics with the same claim.

You speak of maintance and that brings up an interesting angle I didn't think of...

Maybe those peeps buying their little rice cars get all the service done at dealers cause they are light in their shorts. Hence the cars last longer with fewer problems.

The guys owning the domestics, do it themselves but much like many others are just dumb. Fuck it all up and therefor tuck their shit and go back to the dealer with problems/failures. Failures just like how they live their lives.

Then the few domestic owners, like myself, that know how to service a vechicle or two and get good use from their vechicles.

Hmmmm.... I may be onto something... :lol:

That is a fact, jack.

actually I did all the maintenance on all my toyota's after the first one I owned... (stupid easy to work on the 22r or 22re) worked on only one of my chevy's and my GMC. which intailed, 3 or 4 timing belts, 1 or 2 serpentine(on parents vehicles) belts, 3 hubs (wheeling got debris in them), 5 timing chains, 2 head gaskets, 4 cam's (performance upgrades) and a dozen or so tune ups.

all the vehicles I did my own oil and brake's... My last toyota ran perfect until I had the shop work on it... that's when the entire electrical system (alternator, cap, plugs, wires, battery, main fuse ect...) went out... funny timing :idk:


To be honest... if ford made a better truck... I'd buy the ranger... perfect size for me... but 1 don't want a new one... 2 use ones don't last from what I've seen.

that depends on the previous owner. If he bought a ranger because that was what he needed you'll be fine. If he bought a ranger because he couldn't afford a bigger truck and then overloaded the hell out of it, yeah it might not be any good.

I've had a number of late 60's-early 70's domestic that were running well into the 100,000 miles whe I got rid of them, Has 3 Chrysler 2.2's all made it to 100,000 with little to no problems when I got rid of them.

slow down? says who
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3Cu8...layer_embedded

:lol:

this will totally be me.

http://killboy.blogspot.com/2009/05/impressive_28.html

Thats Fucking Tits Trip

and andrea thinks this is a better bike for you :rofl:

no kidding, I will be keeping my suit, I totally want to be that guy that drags knees on a GS up at the gap. :lol:

so your next thread will be...

I HAVE to slow down...

cause I just caught my panniers mid corner and highsided my GS into Kill boy's new car...


just besure to attach the video of you doing a lorenzo highside :lol:

lol, that will be the "My wife just said she would divorce me if i didn't quit riding" thread

I won't take the panniers with me to knee drag, I will drag the kickstand or something

well make sure you do that AFTER the trip... lol

Actually, you'll likely drag the 'engine protection bars' (a.k.a. crash bars) on RH turns or centerstand lever/footpeg on LH turns. ;) And yeah, don't go carving up turns with the nice big EXPENSIVE saddlebags attached... :nono:

:rofl:

Unless you have Jesse bags cuz then you can just bend them back to shape

Actually, those are more likely to simply 'eject' intact off of the mounting rails rather than hang around for abuse... :idk:


:poke:

This will be Trip on the GS....:rockwoot:

:lol: that's the same pic he linked earlier

Opps well shows how I skip through threads. Great minds think alike!

My husband I both have the Jesse boxes and so far so good. We have read all the posts from people who either love them or hate them but we both needed luggage for a trip that is coming up fairly soon. We are huge fans of Touratech but the price difference (x2) and the fact that their 2009 brackets make the bikes really wide made us give Jesses a try. My husband did have to do some modifications since the brackets are designed for the round stock exhaust and not the oval aftermarket. It does not suck having a master fabricator in the house! :rockout:

This guy did a lot of research about pannier width:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=413424

Yeh Jessie bags are about as good as they come, a buddy of mine went down hard and one of them pretty much collapsed flat, all he did was beat it back into shape until it was able to latch and he was fine.

I've also heard stories of the abuse they can take and it's pretty amazing how rugged and well built they are