Bling vs Bang
 

I spend a lot of time talking to people who want to know which shock, tuning system, pipe, leathers or fork kit is "best". I talk to a lot more who want their bikes tuned for the "most power".

My response is always the same: I ask a litany of questions about themselves physically, about their riding experience, about their use of the bike and about what they mean by "best" or "most". Sometimes, people get impatient and interrupt me and ask what this all has to do with the initial question.

One thing I've learned is that EVERYBODY is different, and so are their wants and needs.

Another thing I've learned is that every manufacturer of bikes, performance parts and gear has a different philosophy about about what constitutes better performance and takes different paths to get there.

The last thing I've learned is that "performance" is achieved through a series of compromises; that physics is physics and you can't fool mother nature and you don't get a free ride. What I mean by that is that for every decision to take a particular performance path, you need to give up something, be it longevity, ease of service, weight, comfort, expense, convenience.....yada yada yada.... and that that's ok, as long as everybody understands what the tradeoffs are.

One of the dangers in building "high performance" machinery is that you, the builder get all done with the project as you see it and the customer comes back with, "It's nice, BUT....".

Example.

I had a fellow last week who wanted his track (not RACE) bike tuned for maximum top end power, didn't CARE about the cost of "Race Gas" (another topic all together), just whatever it took with the stock motor to get the best top end. Wanted us to use a couple very expensive different blends of race gas to get the "BEST" top end on the dyno. That process involved many (like 6-8) hours of dyno testing (expensive!).

For his bike, we settled on VP MR12 (high octane, very detonation resistant on lean mixtures and lots of advance, plus, it made the same horsepower as another blend but the bike ran cooler). Gave him the results and he paid to have another couple of hours done to get a custom map done for all throttle positions in all gears..another couple of hours on the dyno.

He came to pick the bike up and the tech was finishing draining and flushing his fuel system (did I mention that this stuff is highly corrosive to fuel fittings and the like, and that if left in the bike more than a few days will trash fuel pumps, injectors , ect? It even says so in big lettering on the cans of fuel he brought us to do the testing).

Anyway, after he finished getting the paperwork, dyno charts and map copies (we copy the maps for our customers in case theer is a glitch and they are out of town and need in remapped to the ecu or fuel unit)he wanted to know why were draining the tank, I told him about the need to not store the bike with race gas in it.

He blew a cork.

"I have to do this every time I'm finished running the bike?"

Yep, only if you don't want to be rebuilding the system every other week.

He wanted a refund, said nobody told him about the fuels' properties, didn't wanna do that and wasn't going to pay.....

Remember, he brought HIS fuel to us....but never did read the lables...just wanted MAX POWER.....

Anyway, when I explained to him that we did this work at his specific direction, and that without payment he wouldn't be using his bike that weekend, he relented.

But he wasn't happy EVEN THOUGH WE DID EXACTLY WHAT HE ASKED.







Sometimes you don't know what's important till it's gone.

Life is a series of trade offs..........do your research, ask questions.

Bikes are easy to tune to a certain spec or application, its just time and money. People on the other hand are just plain frustrating. They want what they want except they change their minds or forgot what they asked about to begin with, or maybe they just wanted one thing but lacked the communication skills to say what they mean.

finally I think back on all my experience and it seems the ones who are the hardest to please are the ones who dont know what to do with it anyways..

should have told him that if he has that much money, he should actually be racing

Other than the guy being douche and not doing his research first...

The best upgrade to any bike (and most cars):

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/D0525188-0-large.jpg

Ah but that's his point, define upgrade? I just ordered a new rear tire for my gf. Her bike came with BT016s, would an "upgrade" have been a BT003 (softer=more traction) or would it have been a BT021 (harder=more mileage)? In the end, we stayed with the original (experience=more confidence).:wink:

"Max power" has alot of meanings, and that guy should know that. My #1 question to myself when I have to ask that is - How often will I have to rebuild my motor? Which is far more expensive and time consuming to me than draining my gas tank after each ride/race.

I upgrade whatever I can afford at the time.

Yes I just recently tuned my bike for max power. But let me add some clarity, I wanted the most I could get with the pipes it had and to run on premium pump gas thus leaving it at a decent state of reliability. Next upgrade and the biggest one before a trackday is DEFINITELY tires. Without question. Then comes suspension and then power.

Usually I wait on the power for the last, but I had the bike in for stator replacement and could get a PCIII installed during that same hour of labor so I went ahead with it.

He just wanted something that would get him laid.

HP is good, torque is better, eing able to access both easily and efficiently is paramount. Proper gearing for the track, proper tires and pressures, well adjusted, smooth operating throttle action mean a ton.

Having a ton of HP and torque and not being able to apply it consistently and safely will get you embarassed at best or hurt bad at worst.

Dude probably has a liter bike and is embarassed that he's getting owned by 600's with better riders. So he wants more power to reel them in on the straights.

If it's just for track days only, I would think that throttle smoothness would be the most important goal to tune for. Who cares about more power unless you're actually competing? Hell, I would have more respect for a STREET rider who asks for more power.

theres not really one best thing, but you get a few good things paired up together, and sometimes you can find that best combo. you rarely get the best combo from using the so called buy the best of everything method. i see ppl at the track all the time that just throw money at their bikes, without stopping to think about the bigger picture.:wtfru:

Yep, I dialed out almost 20 hp on my bike to smooth the throttle response. My '01 was worse for abrupt power.

So what he really wanted was a piece of paper saying his bike could do "x" as far as performance on the dyno, whether it actually pushed that on the street or track is moot since he has a piece of paper saying his bike can do "x" and he can show it to all his buddies as proof of how big his penis is.

Right?

:lol:

I agree with Dnyce, performance is always about having ten or more things all working together producing synergy, rather than one thing boosted a hundred percent. The bigger is better, if some is good get more attitude just wont work.

I think suspension is the most crucial. I've ridden on the track with stock suspension that wasn't set up, stock that was set up and full Ohlins. The feeling you get from a properly tuned and/or upgraded suspension is great. More stable on the brakes, mid corner and exit. And you could have the best tires on your bike, a badly tuned suspension could eat through 'em in a matter of a few sessions. And getting your suspension tuned is probably the cheapest thing you could start out with...but you could see some great results from it. Power will make you faster in the straights. Suspension will get you through the corners faster.

I still have yet to try anything other than stock gearing, but I have a feeling it'll make a world of difference in regards to leaving corners and accelerating, as the R6 down low is a bit lacking. A couple extra teeth should help aleviate that.

Gearing can be a bit of a compromise. and it probably isnt as crucial nowadays with FI'd bikes that pull through a much wider band of torque than with bikes in the past. Its just another one of those advantages you want on your side...

I agree on suspension upgrades. Stock suspension is a huge compromise the engineers make to try and cover every type/size of rider that may purchase the bike. I always get the springs done and tune the suspension to my style and taste at the very least.

Careful..........According to some people, spending money on suspension is a waste unless you race. :lol:

Never mind that your suspension affects you no matter how fast or slow you're going.......

Again, I totally agree. Back when I had carb'd bikes, I almost always changed the gearing, now never.

Oh I'm one of those people to an extent... I have never seen the point in spending big money on Ohlins or whatever on a street bike. :idk: I replace the springs to match my weight and adjust the pre-load, etc and leave it alone after that. I'm not going to fiddle with my suspension every time I ride to match what road I'm going on so why mess with a race suspension for the street? Just an opinion...:sorry:

And for most folks, that's OK, too.

A properly sprung and set up bike is about 90% as good as it gets....

The only folks who really NEED that other 10% are the guys who ride at 99%... the ones who find their forks chattering, or rear tire tearing or hopping on the rough stuff, or pushing the front end.

Or who load there bikes heavy for long distances.

Or who want a softer, more compliant ride with control.

Or , who've set their bike up properly and find it still is starting tankslappers on bumpy exits.

Or who are lighter than the theoretical "average" and get tired of harsh response even with a custom spring on those 500 miles backroad days........





Ps: lighter riders really do get the worst of it; most jap bikes are overdamped on compression, and a lot of harshness gets transmitted to lighter riders.

Okay and you call Race Tech, spend a couple hundred and get the forks/shock re-valved or you change the oil weight... BTW if you are getting tank slappers on the street on a re-sprung and "correctly set up" bike...Well, I'm not sure what modern bike you're talking about but have you ever heard of a steering damper? Seriously, what street riding requires a $5,000 set of Ohlins suspension components?:idk:

Who said you need to buy Ohlins? Not me. And I didn't say just "on the street".

What you said was "I replace the springs to match my weight and adjust the pre-load, etc and leave it alone after that." That's fine. For you. And your bike. For where you ride.

Sportbikes aren't the only bikes in the world...

About half of the suspension work we do is on touring, SM and standards with people who have specific issues. Unless someone has deep pockets and a need for bling, I try to talk folks into Racetech, Elka or Penske (1/2 the price of Ohlins) for the rear and Racetech g2-r ($179) and a correct spring set for the front.

That and a sag set and dialing in comp and rebound front and rear will do it for most.

The other half of the work we do is split pretty evenly between WERA and AMA guys doing serious racing, and everyday riders who split their riding between street and track and are finding the limits of what they have in a stock set-up during their trackdays. Not everybody has more than one bike, and for some, they "need" the versatility that a top-notch set-up brings to the table. That set-up might be a $2600 Ohlins fork, or it might be a new cartridge from one of the other folks (about 1/2 the price).

Note that the title of this thread was "Bling vs Bang".

And yes, sarcasm aside, I've heard of a "steering damper", and a steering damper fixes the symptom, not the problem...it's what you go to after all else fails. If you've never been to a high-speed track that's had the lines on the exits to the turns rippled from high HP (1000+) slick-shod race cars the week before, you wouldn't appreciate the need to use equipment that has separate high and low speed damping adjustments and the absolute difference that a REALLY well set up system can make.

I realize that most folks think that performance increases should be "formulaic"; i.e. the bike does THIS, so change THAT...at the limits of the envelope it seldom is so, ergo my initial post...

Yea that was too many words for me... Basically, did you say "yes they do"? To each their own. Fwiw I was actually debating suspension with someone else initially so...

As far as modding goes, I have to say I am perfectly happy with my bike bone stock. Obviously the engineers knew what they were doing when they built it and I see no reason to spend a fortune "fixing" something that doesnt need it in the first place. I find that's primarily a male fixation...BUT after having my suspension adjusted for me personally a few years ago, I can say that I do appreciate the ride better when it's specified for me, and not your average size male of at least 150 lbs. I get it reset every so often, and I can definitely tell the difference between my suspension set up and that of another bike. The CBR I'm scooting around with lately is most definitely NOT at a good adjustment for me. Feels like I'm riding a dirtbike. :lol:

I find it amusing in observing a talented rider that can go fast on a stock bike, with little but a nod to preload.

Obviously when your racing every little nuance counts and is something you want working for you, but I see skilled riders push OEM goods to the limits and realize that no matter what performance envelope you have built into your machine, if you cant access it skill wise, why install it to begin with?

Case in point being the expert coaches at the Pridmore Star School riding stock GSXR600 and SV 650s while teaching some students on prepped suspensions.

One caveat tho, It is easier for a student rider to learn how a bike performs and is suppose to give feedback on a well set up machine. As through the proper feedback and inputs he deals with it is easier for him to learn about how fast really is supposed to feel

Was that like "Whatevarrrrrrrr!"

He probably wanted his HP to be over....


http://www.bagelsound.com/visual/dig...s/over9000.jpg

Just because a pro racer can go faster on a stock bike, doesn't mean an amateur won't improve his times if he installs an aftermarket suspension.

Bottom line is, it's all about making someone more confident.......Who cares what other people do.

Valid point! That's why I added the caveat. Your right, who cares what other folks do, it's all about dialing in your ride for your style and application.
The thread had become a little watered done from Bling v. Bang. If everyone rode only just what they could use we'd all have Hyosung 250s.

OTB, did you explain all this to him before starting the work? i understand it is up to the individual to do research, but if i am bringing my bike to a mechanic i expect them to be able to explain things to me. after all, if i was the expert i would be doing it myself, not paying someone to do it for me. you may have done exactly what he asked, but to do it without complete explanation is slightly negligent on your part. we are simple people, you must make us understand. then if we insist on forging ahead it will be our own stupid fault if it doesn't work out.

Negligent? I guess by stretching the bounds of negligence to the absurd. Guy has been using race gas all summer; all he asked us to do was dyno it to find the best one and map his system for it.

I didn't sell him the gas...I didn't even recommend that he use it. He brought the gas, told me he had been using it, asked us to do the work. Told me the only thing that mattered was he wanted the most power. Period.

I guess that's why we have so many lawyers. A guy buys a five gallon can of stuff that has so many warning stickers on it you can barely find the name of it; IT COMES with an MSDS sheet stickied to it. IT SAYS IN BOLD LETTERS THAT THE STUFF IS HIGHLY CAUSTIC TO FUEL SYSTEMS: DO NOT STORE VEHICLE WITH FUEL IN SYSTEM! It gives specific directions on removing the fuel after use and flushing with regular pump gas.

I know I'm just a silly-billy, but if I just paid $26.00 a gallon (YES! MR12 is $130 for 5 gallon can) for super-duper racing pooper I'd wanna know a little bit about it....wouldn't you?


My whole initial reason for the thread was based on making assumptions and how a lot of deciding on the "best" course of action needs to be based on asking questions, and based on the answer to those questions, recommending a reasonable course of action to achieve results.

If somebody tells you, "I only care about achieving "A". This is what I have, this is what I want you to do". ; then, when the results are in, he says; "Ya, but what about "B"?, I don't want "B"." What do you do?

Another example:

A fellow came to us with his VTX1800; he brought with him a high-compression kit, pipes, a high-lift cam and a competition clutch kit (extra friction plate, a stiffer basket and stiffer springs)... asked us to install them. We did so, gave him back the bike.

He brought it back a week later, said the bike "wasn't fast enough, I expected it to be a lot faster, and the clutch was too stiff. Fix the bike to make it faster and fix the clutch or give me a refund".

I explained to him that

A. A competition clutch is stiff for a reason; it's to keep the clutch from slipping under full throttle loads, it never was meant for street cruising.

B. We have no way of knowing what the baseline hp/torque of the bike was; we offered the initial baseline dyno run before the work began, but his response was that it was "Too expensive" ($35!...he had $3000 tied up in parts!). We had dynoed it after to properly map it, but it wouldn't tell us if it had gone up or down. The bike was running properly (no hesitation, no flat spots no running issues). Ass-dyno numbers don't count.

C. As we hadn't sold him the parts, we couldn't warrant either the performance of the parts not their suitability for his application.

After doing a lot of research and calls to the companies that built the parts, we found out that in order to make the kind of power he was expecting with the mods he made, he would need to get a high-flow intake (no longer made, co. went out of business), bigger throttle bodies, decked heads and oversize valves, plus some crank work to keep the thing from coming apart. A LOT more money.

On top of that, after doing another teardown and checking part numbers, the cam company had sent the guy the wrong cam. We ended up machining a cam gear and re-degreeing it to work better.

So who is at fault... the clowns that sold the guy the go-fast pieces without telling the guy the whole story, the cam company for screwing up, or the owner, for not doing the research before he dropped $6k on a bike that was barely worth that at the time he did the work.

I gotta tell you, in the eyes of the customer, WE were at fault, even though the bike was assembled and tuned properly.

We helped the guy out, I did the research this guy should have done before he spent the money, we cut him a deal on the second teardown and rebuild; done right with flowed heads and a new intake system it made another 30 rw HP.

A week after he got the bike back, it was stolen.

The insurance company paid him off, he bought a new bike (a Warrior) and now we're modding THAT one for him.........with better expectations.....







So, after all that, who is responsible for making an informed decision?













The guy with the wallet, IMHO.

i still stand by the fact that the person i am paying should be a voice of reason. if i choose to ignore that, then the fault lies on me. just sayin'...

...and I agree. If you're paying somebody for RACE GAS... Then they oughta clue you in to what you are buying and the suitability of it for your intended use........


He were paying us to map his bike based on his intended use.....

Go back to my initial post....

By the same token, we DO ask folks to fill out an information sheet when they come in for any type of tuning, be it suspension, dyno or engine performance work. Besides the regular info, we ask them what they are looking to achieve, what is most and least important, why they chose the modification that they did, ect.

A LOT of shops won't install stuff they haven't sold to the person for just this reason; they don't know what the person has or has not been told (or if the claims are even TRUE or not). We are sensitive to people's pocketbooks; a lot of folks buy stuff on the internetz and then bring it to us for installation. Many folks get the wrong parts, or buy something inappropriate for the intended use and then get pissed. Is it REALLY my fault because I am the bringer of bad news?

In suspensions, we sell Race Tech, Ohlins, Penske and Elka; we sell Dynotune and Bazazz for FMS; we sell Leo Vince, Yosh, and custom race pipes; we work on all the Japanese bikes, new and old, Truimphs KTM's and Ducs, street bikes, dirtbikes, racebikes and cruisers. We fabricate just about anything someone could need. All with just 4 guys.

We are VERY careful about what we sell; most of our business has been by word of mouth through the racer's grapevine. Most of our clients come back time after time.

And most of the problems we encounter are because people don't tell us what they REALLY expect, or interrupt when I'm doing my information gathering and tell me "I just want you to put it on; I'm not interested in that other stuff."

OK...you're the boss.

I will tell you that one of the big issues we've had is with people's expectations from what they may have read; ie. motorcycle mags and websites.

All the big hoopla over the BMW S1000RR in the press has lead to some VERY po'd folks. Motorcyclist touted the "190HP BMW"....(they don't tell you on the cover it's crank HP). So we get folks who want their BMW's dyno'd and then get pissed cause it only makes 174 at the RW. Even when you explain to them beforehand that RW hp is different from crank hp, and that every dyno will give a different reading and that humidity and temperature can have a 2-3% difference on actual raw numbers.

And don't get me going about the guys who come back a week later with $3600 Akropovic full race systems and a Bazazz unit they bought from some internet site based on some "expert" on one of the boards who tells them they should see 195-198 hp with THIS downloaded map... only to find out we can only coax another 4 hp out of the bike on pump gas, and that even with a custom map he might only see another 1-1.5 peak hp by leaning it out a bunch more.

Don't believe everything you read on the internetz........

Yikes you sure can type! I've always felt that its a combination of things that make for a successful modification. I've been where the customer was and I've been where you are...neither position is enviable for sure.

Actually, I'm a slow, lousy typist. It takes me a long time to put together a decent post...but I try to communicate to the best of my meager abilities.

And yes, it can be frustrating on either side of the service counter. It's all about expectations and understanding.

I can understand if you had told the guy to expect "a" results, and he didnt get them, but you didnt, so really, I dont think he has any right to be upset with you. Doesnt mean he wont be, but YOU or the the shop didnt guarantee him the results he expected from whatever source he thought was legit, thats his fault for assuming without doing the research.

If you take your bike into a shop and they tell you they are going to do a, b, and c and you can expect x results and you dont get that, then thats when you'd have the right to be upset.

You should probably have a policy saying that you won't install internal engine parts unless they were ordered by your shop, and that you will do your best to price-match if you do so.

Either that, or the customer must bring documentation and invoice for their parts, with contact information so that you could have called the supplier to verify the camshaft is actually the correct one. And if you can't contact or verify anything, you won't proceed.

Im actually surprised ya'll install parts brought to you. Shops around here and back in Florida where I lived would refuse to even install tires for less than a ridiculous fee and refused to install anything else.

itgirl, you understand that race gas isn't something you can just walk up the pump and purchase, right? It is a very intentional purchase, typically by those that understand full well that not only can they not leave it in the machine - but, they can never put any other fuel into it.

The guy was clearly an idiot. Reminds me of the guy that would come into the shop and weigh tires. He didn't want to buy the best tire composite - he wanted the LIGHTEST tire.

You can't fix crazy. Sometimes people get so hung up on what they think is an "easy" way to buy fast that they can't let go.

Don't mean to be argumentative, but this might have been avoided if you told the guy about the problems associated with MR12 beforehand. Yes, it's written on there but most people don't bother reading, they just listen to their friends and pick and chose what they want to hear.

Sometimes you gotta protect yourself from the stupidity of others. I run my Husky dry when I park it (usually) but only because someone told me to--if not, I would have had no idea. 76 100 oct comes out of a pump next to diesel.

See, now you've got me started!

A guy we did some engine mods (high comp kit, Ti valves, cams, crank, rods...the works )and paintwork for this spring, brought his bike in on a flatbed last week; said the bike's clutch was slipping and kept "stalling".

This guy spent almost $8k on mods, paint and custom motor work for a Kawasaki Mean Streak...lotta money!!! He's put about 8K miles on it since May. When we send bikes out with major engine work we give the owner a break-in and service sheet that tells how to break in and when the next oil change and/or service is due (usually 200 miles to get all the metal shavings from break-in out) ......


He had not brought the bike back in for service since then.

We put the bike up on the lift, pulled the drainplug..........................



........and out came ........







....almost a pint and a half of the burntest, chunkiest glop you ever saw........



....and some metal pieces.....


and that's it.........











http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:X...oast-2.jpg&t=1




TOAST!

And you are right.......again, if I was the one selling the gas, if I'm the one "advising" him on what to do; but when a guy cuts you off repeatedly and says "ALL I care about is peak horsepower!", well, waddaya want me to do? Throw him on the floor and scream into his face?

Hmmm?

One thing I will say is this... Not all work is good work and sometimes its better to say no.

Roger... but it's not MY business..it's my boss's.

OK, then now you have to laugh about it. It's technically your boss's problem - just document all of it, get the work orders to the customer in writing and have them sign off on it - ALL of it.

There are only so many times you can say... "Are you suuuuuure you want to do that?"

Sounds like stereotypical Boston alright..........Tons of bean-head intellectual types who are successful and very smart, but aren't really mechanically inclined......So whenever they get a physical/mechanical hobby like riding, they throw tons of money at it rather than listening to the experts (who they think are "beneath" them)

the only thing i know about race gas is that i don't need it. :lol: seriously, i only know how to ride my bike and i'm probably not all that qualified to do even that much anymore. i am very glad there are people like you and OTB to clear things up for folks like me. like i said, sometimes we need it spelled out to us. and some people there are just no hope for. :)

Then don't wory about it .... He's taking jobs from these jerks . Do your best, go home, have a beer and forget about it.