DDM HID install GENII Busa

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Trip

That's about when I started having issues with my battery. You can either get a $30 relay or a new battery your choice. I am just an electrical engineer, what do I know about current flow...

Well, Mr Engineer... It's a well know fact that HID, florescent, etc lights require LESS current. That's why all the tree huggers want us to change to them! I mean he has a 35 watt system which means that it uses 35 watts right? What size bulb did he take out? Hmmm...55 watts, right? So which uses MORE power? I will ALWAYS admit that most of you here have more education than me BUT I have way more hands on experience than most on this site, so nyah!!! Besides, some of the old systems were using inferior ballasts which caused lots of problems including battery issues... Quite frankly, even if HID ballasts drew DOUBLE the current of stock bulbs, I don't see how having it on for 5 seconds before you start your bike... Not to mention that almost all motorcycle electrical systems cut power to the headlights during startup. Lastly, do you also believe that if you start your bike with the light set to "high" you'll ruin your battery? Shit back in the day we all used to run 100 watt bulbs in our bikes...

Clipped from Wiki....pertinent information is in bold.


HID stands for high-intensity discharge, a technical term for the electric arc that produces the light. The high intensity of the arc comes from metallic salts that are vapourised within the arc chamber. These lamps are formally known as gas-discharge burners, and produce more light for a given level of power consumption than ordinary tungsten and tungsten-halogen bulbs. Because of the increased amounts of light available from HID burners relative to halogen bulbs, HID headlamps producing a given beam pattern can be made smaller than halogen headlamps producing a comparable beam pattern. Alternatively, the larger size can be retained, in which case the xenon headlamp can produce a more robust beam pattern.

Automotive HID lamps are commonly called 'xenon headlamps', though they are actually metal halide lamps that contain xenon gas. The xenon gas allows the lamps to produce minimally adequate light immediately upon powerup, and accelerates the lamps' run-up time. If argon were used instead, as is commonly done in street lights and other stationary metal halide lamp applications, it would take several minutes for the lamps to reach their full output. The light from HID headlamps has a distinct bluish tint when compared with tungsten-filament headlamps. [21]
[edit] History

Xenon headlamps were introduced in 1991 as an option on the BMW 7-series. This first system used an unshielded, non-replaceable burner designated D1 — a designation that would be recycled years later for a wholly different type of burner. The AC ballast was about the size of a building brick. The first American-made effort at HID headlamps was on the 1996-98 Lincoln Mark VIII, which used reflector headlamps with an unmasked, integral-ignitor burner made by Sylvania and designated Type 9500. This was the only system to operate on DC; reliability proved inferior to the AC systems. The Type 9500 system was not used on any other models, and was discontinued after Osram's takeover of Sylvania. All HID headlamps worldwide presently use the standardised AC-operated bulbs and ballasts.
[edit] Burner and ballast operation

HID headlamp bulbs do not run on low-voltage DC current, so they require a ballast with either an internal or external ignitor. The ignitor is integrated into the bulb in D1 and D3 systems, and is either a separate unit or integral with the electronic ballast in D2 and D4 systems. The ballast controls the current to the bulb. The ignition and ballast operation proceeds in three stages:

1. Ignition: a high voltage pulse is used to produce a spark — in a manner similar to a spark plug – which ionises the Xenon gas, creating a conducting tunnel between the tungsten electrodes. In this tunnel, the electrical resistance is reduced and current flows between the electrodes.
2. Initial phase: the bulb is driven with controlled overload. Because the arc is operated at high power, the temperature in the capsule rises quickly. The metallic salts vapourise, and the arc is intensified and made spectrally more complete. The resistance between the electrodes also falls; the electronic ballast control gear registers this and automatically switches to continuous operation.
3. Continuous operation: all metal salts are in the vapour phase, the arc has attained its stable shape, and the luminous efficacy has attained its nominal value. The ballast now supplies stable electrical power so the arc will not flicker.

Stable operating voltage is 85 volts AC in D1 and D2 systems, 42 volts AC in D3 and D4 systems. The frequency of the square-wave alternating current is typically 400 hertz or higher.
[edit] Burner types

HID headlamp burners produce between 2,800 and 3,500 lumens from between 35 and 38 watts of electrical power, while halogen filament headlamp bulbs produce between 700 and 2,100 lumens from between 40 and 72 watts at 12.8 V.[22][23][24]

Current-production burner categories are D1S, D1R, D2S, D2R, D3S, D3R, D4S, and D4R. The D stands for discharge, and the number is the type designator. The final letter describes the outer shield. The arc within an HID headlamp bulb generates considerable short-wave ultraviolet (UV) light, but none of it escapes the bulb, for a UV-absorbing hard glass shield is incorporated around the bulb's arc tube. This is important to prevent degradation of UV-sensitive components and materials in headlamps, such as polycarbonate lenses and reflector hardcoats. "S" burners — D1S, D2S, D3S, and D4S — have a plain glass shield and are primarily used in projector-type optics. "R" burners — D1R, D2R, D3R, and D4R — are designed for use in reflector-type headlamp optics. They have an opaque mask covering specific portions of the shield, which facilitates the optical creation of the light/dark boundary (cutoff) near the top of a low-beam light distribution. Automotive HID burners do emit considerable near-UV light, despite the shield.
[edit] Colour

The correlated colour temperature of HID headlamp bulbs, at between 4100K and 4400K, is often described in marketing literature as being closer to the 6500K of sunlight compared with tungsten-halogen bulbs at 3000K to 3550K. Nevertheless, HID headlamps' light output is not similar to daylight. The spectral power distribution (SPD) of an automotive HID headlamp is discontinuous, while the SPD of a filament lamp, like that of the sun, is a continuous curve. Moreover, the colour rendering index (CRI) of tungsten-halogen headlamps (≥0.98) is much closer than that of HID headlamps (~0.75) to standardised sunlight (1.00). Studies have shown no significant safety effect of this degree of CRI variation in headlighting.[25][26][27][28]
[edit] Advantages
[edit] Increased safety

The HID headlamp light sources (bulbs) offer substantially greater luminance and luminous flux than halogen bulbs — about 3000 lumens and 90 mcd/m2 versus 1400 lumens and 30 mcd/m2. If the higher-output HID light source is used in a well-engineered headlamp optic, the driver gets more usable light. Studies have demonstrated drivers react faster and more accurately to roadway obstacles with good HID headlamps rather than halogen ones.[29] Hence, good HID headlamps contribute to driving safety.[30]
[edit] Efficacy and output

HID burners give higher efficacy (produce more light from less power) than halogen bulbs. The highest-intensity halogen headlamp bulbs, H9 and HIR1, produce 2100 to 2530 lumens from approximately 70 watts at 13.2 volts. A D2S HID burner produces 3200 lumens from approximately 42 watts during stable operation.[22] The reduced power consumption means less fuel consumption, with resultant less CO2 emission per vehicle fitted with HID lighting (1.3 g/km assuming that 30% of engine running time is with the lights on).
[edit] Longevity

The average service life of an HID lamp is 2000 hours, compared to between 450 and 1000 hours for a halogen lamp.[31]
[edit] Disadvantages
[edit] Glare

Vehicles equipped with HID headlamps are required by ECE regulation 48 also to be equipped with headlamp lens cleaning systems and automatic beam levelling control. Both of these measures are intended to reduce the tendency for high-output headlamps to cause high levels of glare to other road users. In North America, ECE R48 does not apply and while lens cleaners and beam levellers are permitted, they are not required;[32] HID headlamps are markedly less prevalent in the US, where they have produced significant glare complaints.[33] Scientific study of headlamp glare has shown that for any given intensity level, the light from HID headlamps is 40% more glaring than the light from tungsten-halogen headlamps.[34]
[edit] Mercury content

HID headlamp bulb types D1R, D1S, D2R, D2S and 9500 contain the toxic heavy metal mercury. The disposal of mercury-containing vehicle parts is increasingly regulated throughout the world, for example under US EPA regulations. Newer HID bulb designs D3R, D3S, D4R, and D4S which are in production since 2004 contain no mercury,[35][36] but are not electrically or physically compatible with headlamps designed for previous bulb types.
[edit] Lack of backward-compatibility

The arc light source in an HID headlamp is fundamentally different in size, shape, orientation, and luminosity distribution compared to the filament light source used in tungsten-halogen headlamps. For that reason, HID-specific optics are used to collect and distribute the light. HID burners cannot effectively or safely be installed in optics designed to take filament bulbs; doing so results in improperly-focused beam patterns and excessive glare, and is therefore illegal in almost all countries.[37]
[edit] Cost

HID headlamps are significantly more costly to produce, install, purchase, and repair. The extra cost of the HID lights may exceed the fuel cost savings through their reduced power consumption, though some of this cost disadvantage is offset by the longer lifespan of the HID burner relative to halogen bulbs.

[Kerry_129]

I don't follow an HID (or any current draw less than the starter) would cause a battery issue, but there may be something I'm not aware of.

But as for the operating wattage/current, that's not the whole picture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current
Older systems had a lot more than the newer 'slow start' ballasts, but the startup current draw is still several times the warmed-up operating current. Notice the amperages listed on this DDM tuning unit: http://www.ddmtuning.com/content/tec...llastspecs.pdf

3.2A operating vs. 15A max

[Trip]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Well, Mr Engineer... It's a well know fact that HID, florescent, etc lights require LESS current. That's why all the tree huggers want us to change to them! I mean he has a 35 watt system which means that it uses 35 watts right? What size bulb did he take out? Hmmm...55 watts, right? So which uses MORE power? I will ALWAYS admit that most of you here have more education than me BUT I have way more hands on experience than most on this site, so nyah!!! Besides, some of the old systems were using inferior ballasts which caused lots of problems including battery issues... Quite frankly, even if HID ballasts drew DOUBLE the current of stock bulbs, I don't see how having it on for 5 seconds before you start your bike... Not to mention that almost all motorcycle electrical systems cut power to the headlights during startup. Lastly, do you also believe that if you start your bike with the light set to "high" you'll ruin your battery? Shit back in the day we all used to run 100 watt bulbs in our bikes...

Do you know what starting amps is? An HID takes considerably more amperage to fire the ballast than pretty much any other light bulb on the market takes to warm up. Which is why I said it takes a lot to fire the ballast in my original post..... You are actually firing the ballast twice when your lights turn on and you start the bike after it fires as Kerry said it also wears on the bulbs life span from the on/off/on cycling of the bulb and ballast...

watch the ammeter on start up of a ballast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCqjSLUIkjk

[Trip]

Originally Posted by Kerry_129

I don't follow an HID (or any current draw less than the starter) would cause a battery issue, but there may be something I'm not aware of.

It's the amps you are hammering on the battery, while not enough to finish your battery quickly, it decreases the life of your battery drastically. Say you are getting 3-5 years out of a battery, you may see 1-2 years out of it with the HIDs. An incandescent bulb does have an in rush current, but it's not nearly as much as the chinese HID ballasts, you can find ballasts that are much lower current draw at start up, but the thin ones tend to be high current draw ones. Not only are you putting this extra current on the battery before start up, but during startup so you are hammering the battery twice with this extra current. Where as you really only do it once with a Incandescent because the temp of the bulb doesn't really change all that much during start so the inrush is not an issue on the incandescent, where as the ballast has to recharge to fire again.

As for the Imax of those HID ballasts being 15A, I may test mine and see what it actually is. I got an old battery and an ammeter. My ballasts are sitting in the garage not being used.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Trip

It's the amps you are hammering on the battery, while not enough to finish your battery quickly, it decreases the life of your battery drastically. Say you are getting 3-5 years out of a battery, you may see 1-2 years out of it with the HIDs. An incandescent bulb does have an in rush current, but it's not nearly as much as the chinese HID ballasts, you can find ballasts that are much lower current draw at start up, but the thin ones tend to be high current draw ones. Not only are you putting this extra current on the battery before start up, but during startup so you are hammering the battery twice with this extra current. Where as you really only do it once with a Incandescent because the temp of the bulb doesn't really change all that much during start so the inrush is not an issue on the incandescent, where as the ballast has to recharge to fire again.

As for the Imax of those HID ballasts being 15A, I may test mine and see what it actually is. I got an old battery and an ammeter. My ballasts are sitting in the garage not being used.

Oh yea? Well my ballasts were made in Germany for your information AND I'd like you to do an amps test on a halogen bulb. I found one goofy site that says they pull 17A and another that claims 6-8, either way, I'm not sure how pulling a few more amps for a minute or less and then going down to about 3 amps for the rest of the time is WORSE than pulling 6-17 amps ALL OF THE TIME!!! Besides, I've had HIDs on my bike since it was almost new and I don't have any problems in 30,000+ miles on the stock battery. Heck, before HIDs I had Osram Xtra bulbs which pull a truckload of amps. I think it's 8-10 but I'll have to check. Regardless, you have to concede my original premise that HIDs pull less power no matter how you slice it! Shit man I don't claim to be an engineer but how does a 55W/9A draw compare to a 35W/15A draw anyway? I'd also imagine that you also believe that 100W bulbs are battery killers as well since they must dram a butt load of amps, right?

Oh and everyone with HIDs turn on your bike and wait for the bulb to heat up. Time it. Now turn the key off and right back on and see if it takes that long the second time....

[Amber Lamps]

Hey and don't be honking that horn 5-10 amps!!!

I'm tired of fucking with you Trip, maybe I'll install a switch to turn the headlights off, so I can wait to turn them on once the bike is running.

[Trip]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Oh yea? Well my ballasts were made in Germany for your information AND I'd like you to do an amps test on a halogen bulb. I found one goofy site that says they pull 17A and another that claims 6-8, either way, I'm not sure how pulling a few more amps for a minute or less and then going down to about 3 amps for the rest of the time is WORSE than pulling 6-17 amps ALL OF THE TIME!!! Besides, I've had HIDs on my bike since it was almost new and I don't have any problems in 30,000+ miles on the stock battery. Heck, before HIDs I had Osram Xtra bulbs which pull a truckload of amps. I think it's 8-10 but I'll have to check. Regardless, you have to concede my original premise that HIDs pull less power no matter how you slice it! Shit man I don't claim to be an engineer but how does a 55W/9A draw compare to a 35W/15A draw anyway? I'd also imagine that you also believe that 100W bulbs are battery killers as well since they must dram a butt load of amps, right?

Oh and everyone with HIDs turn on your bike and wait for the bulb to heat up. Time it. Now turn the key off and right back on and see if it takes that long the second time....

If you install a non OEM bulb that uses a substantial amount of amperage on start up, than you should put in a switch or timer delay. This is one of the reason why dirt bikes and dual sport bikes have these switches installed on their extra lights.

55W bulbs don't pull 9A or they aren't 55W. If it is labeled a 55W, it's going to be close to the standard I = V/R ohm's law. So it's probably going to be in the neighborhood of 5A. If you have a 35W HID system you are running in the neighborhood of 3A. If you run 55W HIDs, you are going to be using about the same amperage as a 55W OEM. The efficiency comes in when you are able to get more light out of less wattage. If someone is putting out a 55W bulb that is 9A, it's not 55W. 9A may be the in rush current.

All in all with a Halogen and Incandescent, you are still running across a filament which will be higher resistance til the filament heats which is pretty instanteously, but you still have a path. Where as the HID system requires an electrical arc, which is know as a fault in a lot of applications. This requires high voltage and current which can serious stress a battery and decrease it's life.

Electrical systems don't need minutes or hours to fuck something up. A few cycles can seriously fuck the world of an electrical system tigger. A cycle is 1/60 seconds. Basically you have a major lack of understanding in this topic and it's best to just take your chances that you aren't overstressing your battery with no delay than argue you aren't. Some batteries can take it if they are designed to handle a lot more starting current, Harleys usually have better batteries for this reason because it takes a lot more to start them. Not a lot of sportbikes are made stock with a decent battery to handle over the stock starting amps without shortening the life of the battery.

[marko138]

Originally Posted by Trip

If you install a non OEM bulb that uses a substantial amount of amperage on start up, than you should put in a switch or timer delay. This is one of the reason why dirt bikes and dual sport bikes have these switches installed on their extra lights.

55W bulbs don't pull 9A or they aren't 55W. If it is labeled a 55W, it's going to be close to the standard I = V/R ohm's law. So it's probably going to be in the neighborhood of 5A. If you have a 35W HID system you are running in the neighborhood of 3A. If you run 55W HIDs, you are going to be using about the same amperage as a 55W OEM. The efficiency comes in when you are able to get more light out of less wattage. If someone is putting out a 55W bulb that is 9A, it's not 55W. 9A may be the in rush current.

All in all with a Halogen and Incandescent, you are still running across a filament which will be higher resistance til the filament heats which is pretty instanteously, but you still have a path. Where as the HID system requires an electrical arc, which is know as a fault in a lot of applications. This requires high voltage and current which can serious stress a battery and decrease it's life.

Electrical systems don't need minutes or hours to fuck something up. A few cycles can seriously fuck the world of an electrical system tigger. A cycle is 1/60 seconds. Basically you have a major lack of understanding in this topic and it's best to just take your chances that you aren't overstressing your battery with no delay than argue you aren't. Some batteries can take it if they are designed to handle a lot more starting current, Harleys usually have better batteries for this reason because it takes a lot more to start them. Not a lot of sportbikes are made stock with a decent battery to handle over the stock starting amps without shortening the life of the battery.

Don't you realize Tigger knows more than you so called electrical engineers?

[RACER X]

hmm..........to relay or not....

http://www.tripageled.com/PAGES/suzu...#HIDdelayrelay


alot of the guys on the busa board usa DEI 528T Delay Switch ($18 delivered) cheaper but larger and "harder" to wire up then the one above.


danging, now 1 of the bulbs on my DDM car setup is going bad, been on the car prolly a yr....we'll see how their warranty dept. goes.........

[Kerry_129]

Personally, I'd definitely use the time delay relay to prevent the on/off/on cycling. I don't remember where I read that the cycling during warmup is particularly hard on HID ballasts/bulbs, but it makes sense given the fact that they have a large inrush current and take a bit to 'warm-up' - it couldn't do anything other than help prolong their life. You should be powering them thru a relay anyway & just using the stock headlight wire to trigger the relay, and the cost of the timer relay over a standard (high quality) 'bosche'-style isn't much - the one I posted is only ~$26 shipped.

http://www.wolstentech.com/products/...delayrelay.php


Oh - and while some bikes don't turn on the headlight until the bike is started, my GSXR750 switches on immediately & switches off when the starter is pressed. I'm assuming your Busa operates the same way. If not, and it doesn't switch the lights on 'til after starting, a timer relay would be redundant (though a regular relay should still be used).