FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness study, - Page 3

OTB · 01-28-2009, 06:57 PM

First, some perspective from someone more learned than I:
http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/stoppingpower.html

For those that believe that only muzzle energy is relevant:
http://www.cruffler.com/BallisticCal...lculator.shtml

From Sanow and Marshall: Stopping Power, The Definitive Study.

http://www.biblio.com/isbn/9780873646536.html

Sanow and Marshall, in their controversial study of actual shootings, have placed the 60 grain .32 Silvertip on equal par with 230 grain .45 FMJ ball for stopping power. On the face of it, the Marshall/Sanow results seem ridiculous. A .45 caliber hole produced by a 230 grain bullet would appear to be far more effective in stopping power than a puny 60 grain hollow point that may or may not expand to .45 caliber.
Missing from the caliber equation is the jet stream turbulence produced by the configuration of the bullet. A .45 bullet that is streamlined to pass through air with the least resistance may not provide the best stopping power.

The trapped and compressed air within the hollow point bullet along with compressed gelatinous mass produces a hydraulic effect when the bullet strikes soft tissue. If things go right, the bullet cup is mushroomed out and the bullet expands to a larger caliber. The degree of penetration is reduced to the degree the bullet expands. The more expansion one gets, the less penetration one gets.

Regardless of whether the hollow point bullet expands or not, there is still turbulence produced by the cup. This turbulence is absent from the streamlined air foil design of ball ammo.

The hollow point cup creates a jet stream that in flesh or gelatin produces a temporary wound cavity of substantially greater diameter than the bullet. This cavity helps allow for bullet expansion since the pressure of the compressed material in the cup is far greater than is the pressure found outside the cup.

For this reason, hollow point ammo generally expands better in bare ballistic gelatin than it does, if at all, in clothed gelatin. When the cup strikes a less resilient surface than soft tissue, the pressures inside and outside the cup are closer to parity and expansion is limited. This almost seems to me to be the ideal situation. If a perpetrator is lightly clothed, the ammo will expand for maximum stopping power. On the other hand, if the perpetrator is heavily clothed and we are looking for better penetration, the ammo will sacrifice expansion for penetration.

This is why one cannot simply say “X ammo in caliber Y pistol is a superior choice”. For YEARS, the Indiana Highway Patrol kept their antiquated Colt Pythons loaded with 110gr Speer “Flying Ashtray”rounds, long after the rest of the world had switched to hi-cap 9’s. An extremely high percentage of their officer’s shootings required penetration of auto glass or bodywork; the 9’s are woefully inadequate in those situations.

Part of the armourers craft is in matching the right weapon to the most likely job the carrier will encounter. And so the debate rages on……

As far as the Glaser and the Magsafe FNFALMAN is dead on. These rounds were developed for the PRIMARY purpose of preventing overpenetration....stopping power was a secondary consideration. These rounds were (and are) meant for folks living in crowded urban environments , townhouses and apartments where overpenetration or a miss could mean killing your neighbor...same goes for the new "divided" and the sintered frangibles. These rounds had their original devlopement directed by the desire for use by skymarshalls to foil hijackers without downing the plane.

Fact of the matter is, there are a number of forums out there wherethe participants do nothing but argue the relative merits of this or that favorite caliber. The 22 LR has killed more folks in non-military shootings than all other calibers combined. (Not my numbers, folks; from the FBI stats). Doesn't mean I'm gonna use a Hi-Standard as my primary weapon....but if it is all I can get a hold of...shot placement is still king.....

Amber Lamps · 01-28-2009, 07:55 PM

I don't pretend to be the "gun smiths" you guys are but one thing I do know,I'll gladly have a 100 meter duel with anyone,me with a 9mm and my opponent carrying a 45...

Amorok · 01-29-2009, 06:27 AM

So carrying .45 Hornady taps or Speer Gold Dots is a waste of money, I should just switch to a .32? Thanks for the info, now I'll save money AND get killed.

Amber Lamps · 01-29-2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amorok

So carrying .45 Hornady taps or Speer Gold Dots is a waste of money, I should just switch to a .32? Thanks for the info, now I'll save money AND get killed.

To be totally honest,as far as home defense goes,I'd rather have a 12 gauge pump!

Papa_Complex · 01-29-2009, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TIGGER

I don't pretend to be the "gun smiths" you guys are but one thing I do know,I'll gladly have a 100 meter duel with anyone,me with a 9mm and my opponent carrying a 45...

Maybe if that 9mm was a Marlin Camp 9.....

Rider · 01-29-2009, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TIGGER

To be totally honest,as far as home defense goes,I'd rather have a 12 gauge pump!

With a pistol grip.

Dragonpaco · 01-29-2009, 08:09 AM

we really need to stop arguing about defensive calibers.

Papa_Complex · 01-29-2009, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonpaco

we really need to stop arguing about defensive calibers.

Right. Anyone knows that explosives are the way to go anyway.

Dragonpaco · 01-29-2009, 08:24 AM

exactly, a slug attached to a bird bomb is the only way to go

Rider · 01-29-2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papa_Complex

Right. Anyone knows that explosives are the way to go anyway.

Everyone should own a Mark 19 grenade launcher.

01-28-2009, 06:57 PM	#21
OTB The Man Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: CrabTown USA Moto: 00 Bimota DB4 Posts: 823	First, some perspective from someone more learned than I: http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/stoppingpower.html For those that believe that only muzzle energy is relevant: http://www.cruffler.com/BallisticCal...lculator.shtml From Sanow and Marshall: Stopping Power, The Definitive Study. http://www.biblio.com/isbn/9780873646536.html Sanow and Marshall, in their controversial study of actual shootings, have placed the 60 grain .32 Silvertip on equal par with 230 grain .45 FMJ ball for stopping power. On the face of it, the Marshall/Sanow results seem ridiculous. A .45 caliber hole produced by a 230 grain bullet would appear to be far more effective in stopping power than a puny 60 grain hollow point that may or may not expand to .45 caliber. Missing from the caliber equation is the jet stream turbulence produced by the configuration of the bullet. A .45 bullet that is streamlined to pass through air with the least resistance may not provide the best stopping power. The trapped and compressed air within the hollow point bullet along with compressed gelatinous mass produces a hydraulic effect when the bullet strikes soft tissue. If things go right, the bullet cup is mushroomed out and the bullet expands to a larger caliber. The degree of penetration is reduced to the degree the bullet expands. The more expansion one gets, the less penetration one gets. Regardless of whether the hollow point bullet expands or not, there is still turbulence produced by the cup. This turbulence is absent from the streamlined air foil design of ball ammo. The hollow point cup creates a jet stream that in flesh or gelatin produces a temporary wound cavity of substantially greater diameter than the bullet. This cavity helps allow for bullet expansion since the pressure of the compressed material in the cup is far greater than is the pressure found outside the cup. For this reason, hollow point ammo generally expands better in bare ballistic gelatin than it does, if at all, in clothed gelatin. When the cup strikes a less resilient surface than soft tissue, the pressures inside and outside the cup are closer to parity and expansion is limited. This almost seems to me to be the ideal situation. If a perpetrator is lightly clothed, the ammo will expand for maximum stopping power. On the other hand, if the perpetrator is heavily clothed and we are looking for better penetration, the ammo will sacrifice expansion for penetration. This is why one cannot simply say “X ammo in caliber Y pistol is a superior choice”. For YEARS, the Indiana Highway Patrol kept their antiquated Colt Pythons loaded with 110gr Speer “Flying Ashtray”rounds, long after the rest of the world had switched to hi-cap 9’s. An extremely high percentage of their officer’s shootings required penetration of auto glass or bodywork; the 9’s are woefully inadequate in those situations. Part of the armourers craft is in matching the right weapon to the most likely job the carrier will encounter. And so the debate rages on…… As far as the Glaser and the Magsafe FNFALMAN is dead on. These rounds were developed for the PRIMARY purpose of preventing overpenetration....stopping power was a secondary consideration. These rounds were (and are) meant for folks living in crowded urban environments , townhouses and apartments where overpenetration or a miss could mean killing your neighbor...same goes for the new "divided" and the sintered frangibles. These rounds had their original devlopement directed by the desire for use by skymarshalls to foil hijackers without downing the plane. Fact of the matter is, there are a number of forums out there wherethe participants do nothing but argue the relative merits of this or that favorite caliber. The 22 LR has killed more folks in non-military shootings than all other calibers combined. (Not my numbers, folks; from the FBI stats). Doesn't mean I'm gonna use a Hi-Standard as my primary weapon....but if it is all I can get a hold of...shot placement is still king..... Last edited by OTB; 01-28-2009 at 07:00 PM..

01-29-2009, 06:27 AM	#23
Amorok Issukangitok Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Biloxi, MS Moto: '06 Suzuki Boulevard C50T Posts: 2,225	So carrying .45 Hornady taps or Speer Gold Dots is a waste of money, I should just switch to a .32? Thanks for the info, now I'll save money AND get killed. __________________ What goes around comes around. Sometimes you get what's coming around, and sometimes you are what's coming around. You see what I mean?

01-28-2009, 07:55 PM	#22
Amber Lamps Moto GP Star Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 14,556	I don't pretend to be the "gun smiths" you guys are but one thing I do know,I'll gladly have a 100 meter duel with anyone,me with a 9mm and my opponent carrying a 45...