Which scenario breeds the better rider?

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by FT BSTRD

The MSF doesn't make you a "good" rider any more than passing your driver's test makes you a "good" driver.

Experience MUST be gained in the real world. That said, I do believe that a training course provides a better foundation to build those skills on than none at all.

I think a better comparison would be if you paid for drivers ed, and they took you round and round a parking lot, would you feel that your money was well spent?

I know the msf up here is 440 for the weekend. Drivers ed isn't that much more expensive, and you gain a lot of knowledge from drivers ed. How hard would it be to make something comparable?

[OreoGaborio]

Fat, well said. I couldn't agree more.


Tmall, I'm not saying you're not making a good point, it's definitely an interesting perspective,holds weight and something to think about... but driving school to riding school, they're like apples and oranges in many ways. It's a virtual impossibility to do many things in the MSF that they can do in driving school.

For starters, you can put dual controls in a car so the Instructor can take over in the event of an emergency.... Even if you did that on a bike, you can't put an instructor on the back of a motorcycle with a student. And the logistics of bringing motorcycle students out onto the street would be an absolute nightmare. A lot of these MSF GRADUATES don't even belong on the street after finishing the course, nevermind DURING the course. We tell them that accordingly and always, no matter who they are, suggest extended learning opportunities.

How long ago was it that you participated in an MSF class? I'll concede that the classroom portion is only 5 hours, but there's a LOT of knowledge packed into that as well. So if you're looking at the knowledge gained, I think the two schools are quite comparable.

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

Fat, well said. I couldn't agree more.


Tmall, I'm not saying you're not making a good point, it's definitely an interesting perspective,holds weight and something to think about... but driving school to riding school, they're like apples and oranges in many ways. It's a virtual impossibility to do many things in the MSF that they can do in driving school.

For starters, you can put dual controls in a car so the Instructor can take over in the event of an emergency.... Even if you did that on a bike, you can't put an instructor on the back of a motorcycle with a student. And the logistics of bringing motorcycle students out onto the street would be an absolute nightmare. A lot of these MSF GRADUATES don't even belong on the street after finishing the course, nevermind DURING the course. We tell them that accordingly and always, no matter who they are, suggest extended learning opportunities.

How long ago was it that you participated in an MSF class? I'll concede that the classroom portion is only 5 hours, but there's a LOT of knowledge packed into that as well. So if you're looking at the knowledge gained, I think the two schools are quite comparable.

I did it two years ago.. I've been riding since I was a kid. And I wanted my license officially. It was the quickest way for me to do it. The waiting list for the written test was about 6 months. The msf was available at the start of the season.

[OreoGaborio]

Sounds good... I wanted to get an idea of your point of view.

I know a LOT has changed since I took it way back in 2001, but I'm not sure how much it's developed in the last 2 since you went through the program.

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by Tmall

I think a better comparison would be if you paid for drivers ed, and they took you round and round a parking lot, would you feel that your money was well spent?

I know the msf up here is 440 for the weekend. Drivers ed isn't that much more expensive, and you gain a lot of knowledge from drivers ed. How hard would it be to make something comparable?

I think you are missing the point. Drivers ed has a very different intent than MSF.

MSF assumes you have people who already have their driver's license and understand the rules of the road. Driver's ed is mainly for people obtaining their driver's license for the first time. You MUST drive on the street for Driver's ed because the goal is to prepare you for release onto the road with zero practical experience.

As I'm sure you'll concede, operating a motorcycle is VERY different than operating a car. The MSF course is designed to teach those factors that are unique to motorcycles. How they work, best practices, unique mechanical attributes.

How would one practice panic stops in traffic?

How would one practice riding in the box on public streets?

Additionally, there is the issue of legality. You couldn't have 30 motorcycle riders riding someone else's motorcycles without a license on public streets.

For what can be done and what it offers, the MSF course is pretty damn good. It isn't the last word in rider education, but it's a really great start.

It's the first step in being a life long student of the art.

Or you could just borrow your buddy's bike, go down to the license place after you've ridden around in a parking lot by yourself and pass the test.

After you have your license, you don't really need to do any training.

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by FT BSTRD

I think you are missing the point. Drivers ed has a very different intent than MSF.

MSF assumes you have people who already have their driver's license and understand the rules of the road. Driver's ed is mainly for people obtaining their driver's license for the first time. You MUST drive on the street for Driver's ed because the goal is to prepare you for release onto the road with zero practical experience.

As I'm sure you'll concede, operating a motorcycle is VERY different than operating a car. The MSF course is designed to teach those factors that are unique to motorcycles. How they work, best practices, unique mechanical attributes.

How would one practice panic stops in traffic?

How would one practice riding in the box on public streets?

Additionally, there is the issue of legality. You couldn't have 30 motorcycle riders riding someone else's motorcycles without a license on public streets.

For what can be done and what it offers, the MSF course is pretty damn good. It isn't the last word in rider education, but it's a really great start.

It's the first step in being a life long student of the art.

Or you could just borrow your buddy's bike, go down to the license place after you've ridden around in a parking lot by yourself and pass the test.

After you have your license, you don't really need to do any training.

And I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying.

My original point was and still is, that msf graduates do not deserve an insurance break for completing the course. And I do not feel that the instructors do either. It is not a special skill set. It teaches you the basics.

[OreoGaborio]

Hey, T. I know your post wasn't directed to me, but I'd still like to address the point that you're making if I may

I agree that what you learn/practice in MSF, for the most part, is not a SPECIAL skill set that you couldn't otherwise learn on your own. I think that's KIND of what you're founding your case on but in different words, but correct me if I'm wrong.

My "counter points" to that were:

Street survival is 90% MENTAL... only 10% skill.

I also believe that new riders that are MSF graduates are LESS likely to get in an accident than new riders that are non MSF graduates with similar riding experience.

And I also have a hunch (and I have no data to back it up) that MSF RiderCoaches are POSSIBLY less likely to get in an accident than non MSF RiderCoaches with similar riding experience. I'm not necessarily saying without a doubt that RiderCoaches deserve a discount, but it'd certainly be nice! and I don't know if I agree with you that it wouldn't be deserved if we did as we're doing what we can to make the roads safer for everyone.



I also think that the insurance discount is not solely a statement by the insurance companies saying that they think MSF grads are safer, but also an incentive to take the class. Those first time riders that take the class are, without a doubt, better off than learning from a friend or on their own.

If you don't think that justifies an insurance discount, well then so be it... I stated my case. I hold no grudges and I think this is a good discussion

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

Hey, T. I know your post wasn't directed to me, but I'd still like to address the point that you're making if I may

I agree that what you learn/practice in MSF, for the most part, is not a SPECIAL skill set that you couldn't otherwise learn on your own. I think that's KIND of what you're founding your case on but in different words, but correct me if I'm wrong.

My "counter points" to that were:

Street survival is 90% MENTAL... only 10% skill.

I also believe that new riders that are MSF graduates are LESS likely to get in an accident than new riders that are non MSF graduates with similar riding experience.

And I also have a hunch (and I have no data to back it up) that MSF RiderCoaches are POSSIBLY less likely to get in an accident than non MSF RiderCoaches with similar riding experience. I'm not necessarily saying without a doubt that RiderCoaches deserve a discount, but it'd certainly be nice! and I don't know if I agree with you that it wouldn't be deserved if we did as we're doing what we can to make the roads safer for everyone.



I also think that the insurance discount is not solely a statement by the insurance companies saying that they think MSF grads are safer, but also an incentive to take the class. Those first time riders that take the class are, without a doubt, better off than learning from a friend or on their own.

If you don't think that justifies an insurance discount, well then so be it... I stated my case. I hold no grudges and I think this is a good discussion

I hold no grudges either. It's obviously all opinion.

[OreoGaborio]

Indeed... and in this case I don't think EITHER of our opinions even matter... it's what the insurance companies say that really counts!

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by Tmall

And I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying.

My original point was and still is, that msf graduates do not deserve an insurance break for completing the course. And I do not feel that the instructors do either. It is not a special skill set. It teaches you the basics.

Insurance companies provide the same discount for driver's ed as they do for MSF.

I believe the insurance companies view ANY training better than none at all.


How effective an beneficial that training is is open to debate.