Brock Lesnar Vs. The Undertaker

[TYEster]

Originally Posted by Trip

I am with Bonesaw on this one. It's pretty clear he knew he had no game in MMA, he even said he was too old at the end of the interview. He was just doing the WWE bullshit. MMA/WWE, they are both gay, so it doesn't really matter either way to me.

This is what I was saying.

He would/should probably go back to WWE if the money was right. That's straight up paid entertainment.

[JoJoYZF]

Originally Posted by OneSickPsycho

Shit's exploding all over the internet about the fight, the Undertaker thing, and Lesnar's future...

First off, hat's off to Cain Velasquez... the guy just keeps getting better and he looked incredible Saturday night.

As for Brock, he needs to go back to square one. I fully beleive he's got the potential to be a first class fighter... as long as he can get used to getting hit in the face. Although, that was only his 2nd big problem...

Lesnar's game plan was a complete departure from his last couple fights... maybe his camp feared Velasquez's striking that much, or maybe they underestimated his wrestling that much... or maybe they thought Lesnar was too big, too strong, and too quick for anything Velasquez had to offer... who knows... Either way, the Lesnar bum rush that got him caught by Mir is what ended this fight so quickly... combine that with an adrenaline rush and energy dump...

No excuses, Brock folded under the pressure of Velasquez's strikes. Once he got hit a couple of times, he lost his composure and probably wasn't seeing very straight either. Duck and fold is NOT a competent fighter's strategy.

So does Lesnar have a chin... I think so... is he afraid of getting hit in the face... maybe... does he have some of the worst strike defense of anyone in the UFC - absofuckinglutely. His hands fall quickly and he doesn't counter... in a match against a guy who can handle Lesnar's size, match his speed, neutralize his wrestling, and has excellent striking technique... the inevitable happened.

Personally, I hope Lesnar comes back. I hope he stops trying to lead his own camp and humbles himself to grunt it out at another, more established camp. He needs to learn to better defend against strikes, counter, and establish (stick with) a good game plan. He is an amazing athlete who's just scratched the surface of his potential... However Mike Tyson said it best, "everyone has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth" or something like that.

A couple of things I noticed other than Lesnar getting whipped... 1) He's WAY smaller than he used to be... less roiding given the current climate in the UFC? focusing on leaning out to gain speed? Not sure, but he's definitely smaller. 2) His bag of tricks keeps getting deeper. Despite the ass-whipping, did anyone notice that flying knee? Actually looked pretty decent... man, that's a scary prospect... Muy Thai knees from a fucking mammoth animal like Lesnar.

As far as the Undertaker thing... I really, REALLY hope it wasn't some sort of WWE shtick... If so, that's about as low as it gets... Dude just got devestated and there you are on camera trying to bait him into a WWE match... If Lesnar was in on it, it's even worse... but for different reasons.

Other things about the whole event...

I am now a Jake Sheilds fan. Despite it not being an exciting fight, his technical prowess was INCREDIBLE. Dropping from 190 to 170 in a single day to make weight is fucking moronic and he looked dead tired a minute or so into the fight... however, sheer talent carried him through the remainder of the fight and Kampmann's ground game is no joke. The guy allowed himself to be put into the guillotine choke a couple of times just to get the fight back to the ground - and Kampmann's finished two people by guillotine and submitted others. That's fucking skills. GSP will breeze through Koscheck and Sheilds will come back in amazing condition... GSP - Sheilds all of a sudden became VERY interesting to me...

Diego Sanchez is BACK! He's an entertaining fighter and I'm really glad to see him pull out a W. Very entertaining fight... I'm not sure he'll ever be a top 10 guy again, but he's fun to watch.

Brandon Shaub really impressed me as well... Gonzaga isn't what he used to be and the heavyweight division has been evolving, but Shaub looked really good. Mir-Shaub is possible, or at least Shaub wants it... That would be a very interesting fight.

I fully agree with all of this. Lesnar could be a beast if he becomes a more rounded fighter. His ground game is pretty decent already because of his wrestling background (college, not the fake wwe shit) so if he can learn some submission defense and maybe a few submissions of his own he'd be a real tough fighter. I think youre right about him needing to go to a real camp. If he could up his ground game and get a good boxing coach to teach him how to counter and block along with a ground game he could be unstoppable.

Im wondering how much of him being smaller is still from him being sick. I know they said he lost a ton of weight and gained some back before the carwin fight and Im not sure how much more he was able to gain back. He used to walk around at almost 300 lbs and lately has been closer to 270-275 I think. It makes the cut a lot easier but its still obvious how much smaller he is come fight time.

Jake shields will definitely be a hell of a fighter once he cuts right. He looked almost sick and like joe rogan pointed out, he looked very dry like it was a very rough cut. Im guessing they did inflate the 20 lbs in a day but from the look of it I wouldnt be too surprised if it was only 2 or 3 days. Once he fights with some strength and cardio he should be a great opponent for gsp. I dont even know why koscheck has a title shot against gsp because I seriously doubt hes even going to put up a good fight.

Ive been a sanchez fan since he was on the ultimate fighter so I was very happy to see him fighting like his old self. Nothing says diego's back quite like the slam after carrying thiago across the octagon while screaming.

[Kaneman]

Been reading that they're going to do Lesnar Vs. Mir III for his next fight. Boring....

FWIW, the WEC usually has better fights, but I'm a sucker for the big names too.

[z06boy]

Originally Posted by Triple

I fully expected Velasquez to dismantle Lesnar. I was never a Lesnar fan to begin with, and for me, all his mystique disappeared with the first round mauling he took from Carwin. If Carwin had come into that fight with the proper conditioning, he would have taken the title just as easily as Velasquez. Lesnar is good, and I expect him to come back even better, but his unrealistic reputation was built entirely upon wins over the aging shadow of Randy Couture and the always over-rated Frank Mir.

Velasquez reminds me of Fedor. The quiet, humble fighter who grew up in poverty, who lacks the size and physique of his opponents, who wins not through physical strength, but rather technique and tenacity. Velasquez is a wrestler and Emelianenko has his Sambo, but both are grapplers who also excel on the feet. With the exception of Fedor's last few fights, both guys dominate from bell to bell. With Fedor's career winding down (he fought all of 69 seconds in 2010), I can't think of any up-and-comer more deserving of the torch than Velasquez.

That said, as of today, I still think Emelianenko could take Velasquez. Styles make fights, and I think Fedor would actually have more trouble with monsters like Lesnar or Carwin.

Velasquez's first title defense against Junior dos Santos is very reminiscent of Emelianenko versus Filipovic: the top heavyweight striker versus the champion heavyweight grappler. Fans new to the sport don't think much of it now, but in 2005 that fight was HUGE.

Originally Posted by Triple

If Cro Cop would have brought 1/100th of his old self into his last fight, he would have kicked Mir's head off and we wouldn't have to suffer through Mir-Lesnar III.

WEC / UFC, it's all Zuffa. I don't know why they don't just merge the two. Throwing the WEC 155-pounders into the UFC mix would be AWESOME, and guys in the lighter classes (ALDO) could use the exposure.

Good posts and I agree with ALL of it EXCEPT that even though I wanted Cain to dismantle Brock...I admit that I didn't "fully expect it".

I didn't see much of anyone else thinking it before the fight. I'm not saying you didn't...I just didn't see anyone much at all thinking it. Most just seem to think Brock was too big and strong and would take Cain down for some ground and pound...I'm glad that didn't happen.

[defector]

Originally Posted by Kaneman

Been reading that they're going to do Lesnar Vs. Mir III for his next fight. Boring....

FWIW, the WEC usually has better fights, but I'm a sucker for the big names too.

Yeah that sucks, but it is a business. Lesnar was a part of two of the biggest UFC PPV's ever. I think they want to get him back in there with someone he is confident he can beat (again).

[defector]

Originally Posted by Triple

It'll never happen, but I'd like to see JDS vs Overeem, Cain vs Fedor, and Brock vs Barnett. No style clashes this way, just matches to determine the best at what they all do.

Overeem needs to fight somebody. Anybody. In a cage, not in a K1 ring.

[OneSickPsycho]

Originally Posted by Triple

I fully expected Velasquez to dismantle Lesnar. I was never a Lesnar fan to begin with, and for me, all his mystique disappeared with the first round mauling he took from Carwin. If Carwin had come into that fight with the proper conditioning, he would have taken the title just as easily as Velasquez. Lesnar is good, and I expect him to come back even better, but his unrealistic reputation was built entirely upon wins over the aging shadow of Randy Couture and the always over-rated Frank Mir.

Velasquez reminds me of Fedor. The quiet, humble fighter who grew up in poverty, who lacks the size and physique of his opponents, who wins not through physical strength, but rather technique and tenacity. Velasquez is a wrestler and Emelianenko has his Sambo, but both are grapplers who also excel on the feet. With the exception of Fedor's last few fights, both guys dominate from bell to bell. With Fedor's career winding down (he fought all of 69 seconds in 2010), I can't think of any up-and-comer more deserving of the torch than Velasquez.

That said, as of today, I still think Emelianenko could take Velasquez. Styles make fights, and I think Fedor would actually have more trouble with monsters like Lesnar or Carwin.

Velasquez's first title defense against Junior dos Santos is very reminiscent of Emelianenko versus Filipovic: the top heavyweight striker versus the champion heavyweight grappler. Fans new to the sport don't think much of it now, but in 2005 that fight was HUGE.

I think Fedor is the most over-rated person in MMA... period.

Originally Posted by Kaneman

Been reading that they're going to do Lesnar Vs. Mir III for his next fight. Boring....

FWIW, the WEC usually has better fights, but I'm a sucker for the big names too.

I think Lesnar/Mir III has a draw, but I wouldn't be overly excited for it... I'd like to see Lesnar/Carwin II much more than that...

Originally Posted by Triple

If Cro Cop would have brought 1/100th of his old self into his last fight, he would have kicked Mir's head off and we wouldn't have to suffer through Mir-Lesnar III.

WEC / UFC, it's all Zuffa. I don't know why they don't just merge the two. Throwing the WEC 155-pounders into the UFC mix would be AWESOME, and guys in the lighter classes (ALDO) could use the exposure.

Aldo is a fucking animal, I LOVE watching that guy fight. I think they aren't combining the two because in general the lighter classes aren't as exciting... from a casual fan standpoint. Nobody gives a shit who the toughest guy is at 135, but everyone pays attention to the 205'ers... Just like boxing... guys move up in weight to get more exposure and get the fights that draw the most attention.

Originally Posted by defector

Yeah that sucks, but it is a business. Lesnar was a part of two of the biggest UFC PPV's ever. I think they want to get him back in there with someone he is confident he can beat (again).

Lesnar was the draw for 3 of the UFC's top 4 PPV's... he's a cash cow... and despite the loss, I think he still will be... that said, I don't see him topping out his next PPV and probably not the one after that either (unless he whips unholy ass next time).

[OneSickPsycho]

Originally Posted by Triple

I hear this most often from people who weren't following the sport pre-2005/06. He's beaten his share of cans, but he's also beaten everyone who was anyone at the time he fought them.

Fedor and Brock have each fought four top-ten opponents in the last three years, and have each gone 3-1 (not counting Lesnar's avenged loss to Mir).

I don't disagree at all, but everyone sucks Fedor's cock like he's a God and truthfully, he's nothing compared to the new generation of fighters... especially now that the heavyweight ranks are attracting guys that aren't JUST big... and he knows it.

There is no real reason Fedor wouldn't have come into the UFC other than he's afraid of losing his god-like status among MMA fans... He's like Mayweather... He'll keep fighting guys that he stacks up well against and he'll keep winning, but he won't be fighting the best of the best.

The proof is in the pudding... Other guys that he has beaten, but who have been otherwise reasonably successful come into the UFC and get destroyed... Or, they are UFC flunkies who are on their way out anyway... and in one case, the UFC cast out wins.

He starts putting on dominating performances against someone relevant, then I'll buy into the Fedor-mystique... but until then, Fedor is going to be just as irrelevant to me.

[defector]

It's been a while since I've been interested in the HW division. I honestly think Dos Santos can beat Velasquez. Brendan Shaub looks to have a pretty good future, too. I would like to see him go against Carwin.
Lesnar has been exposed as the primitive fighter he is - if he gets with a good camp (outside of Minnesota) and gets some different training, he could truly be a nightmare for anybody. I just don't think he is willing to yet.

[Kaneman]

Originally Posted by defector

It's been a while since I've been interested in the HW division. I honestly think Dos Santos can beat Velasquez. Brendan Shaub looks to have a pretty good future, too. I would like to see him go against Carwin.
Lesnar has been exposed as the primitive fighter he is - if he gets with a good camp (outside of Minnesota) and gets some different training, he could truly be a nightmare for anybody. I just don't think he is willing to yet.

Looks like Carwin won't be fighting anyone for a while...he just pulled out of the Nelson fight due to back injury. Now they're talking Cro Cop Vs. Nelson possibly... WTF?