Buell is done, finished, gone

[Homeslice]

Originally Posted by derf

If they can sell a bike that appeals to the cool boy sportbike crowd, that has the image of a gixxer then they would break into the sport bike market. We can all agree that buells were pretty good bikes, but they didnt have the cool boy image that a gixxer has, they appealed to folks that were already in the sportbike market and liked a bike that can handle. What it comes down to is that if you create the image then you sell the bike. More people ride to look cool than to enjoy riding.

HD doesn't need to get into sportbikes, they don't need to and they would fail anyway. The only thing they might want to consider is offering something for $10K or less so that younger people can afford it. Then again, why should they do anything? They are profitable enough as is.

[FT BSTRD]

I've SOLD both the sportbikes and the Chrome Couches. Completely different cultures with completely different needs.


HD isn't that different than the Big Four in the way that they progress. When was the last evolutionary leap you've seen in sport bikes?

Even the crossplane crankshaft has been met with resistence.

I remember the hue and cry when the new Ninjas came out and how "ugly" they were. Really? It was hard to even tell them apart.


Harley is the same way. Rarely do they come out with anything "new". The last two "new" things were the V-Rod and the Rocker. Both have been unmitigated failures in the eyes of HD. Are they bad bikes? No. They are just outside the small box of what the typical HD buyer wants.

From the outside, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between a 1987 Sportster and a 2010 Sportster, between a 1995 Electra Glide and a 2010 Electra Glide. Mechanically, they are vastly different. Visually, they are virtually identical.

Is there really THAT much difference between SV650 model years? You'd have to go pretty far back to have an R1 look THAT different than the current model.

The difference is in what you find "interesting". It didn't matter what Buell did, your average HD rider wasn't going to find it "interesting" (or at least interesting enough to plunk down the green to buy one).

Buell didn't "fail". It was closed by HD because it wasn't part of the core business. You will probably also see some HD models "die" because they are not part of the core business. The core is Big V-Twins. Period.

That is not a bad thing for HD. They do that very well. The question is whether there are enough people to last to keep them afloat. Yes the Baby Boomers are dying, but that dynamic is in effect for EVERY business model.

There were only 135,000 Buells manufactured since 1987. Buell was never going to stem the tide of Baby Boomer death. HD made a decision to begin to prune its branches last week. More cuts are to come. York, PA is about to be closed.

HD has $1B in debt that will need to be refinanced. The $30M Buell could generate wasn't enough to matter. MV was a black hole.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Homeslice

HD doesn't need to get into sportbikes, they don't need to and they would fail anyway. The only thing they might want to consider is offering something for $10K or less so that younger people can afford it. Then again, why should they do anything? They are profitable enough as is.

Dude, haven't you ever heard of the Sportster? $7000 for the 883 version.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/C...jsp#/family/sp

[derf]

Originally Posted by Homeslice

HD doesn't need to get into sportbikes, they don't need to and they would fail anyway. The only thing they might want to consider is offering something for $10K or less so that younger people can afford it. Then again, why should they do anything? They are profitable enough as is.

I can agree with what you say on this. Except for one point, the reason that HD exists is to make money, and they want to make more than they already have. They do want to break into the sportbike market, thats why they own buell and MV. they just dont think they can do it with their own name, I also think that they think the HD name on a sport bike will hurt the image with the bad ass biker crowd so they dont want to risk it, but they dont mind introducing a sportish bike under the xr name.

Yes they do need to introduce an american bike under 10k, in fact they need to build a sportster type of bike that the average construction worker can buy, something cheap no frills no nothing, just and engine and 2 wheels. The blast would be the perfect bike, except it will eat into the sportster people who can just barely afford it and instead get crappy loans through HD finance, which is what got them in trouble in the first place.

Again, just my opinion

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by pdog

Probably the biggest issue with Buell for me personally was their terrible lineup. You had a 500cc crapcycle at the bottom end and then 900/1200cc monsters for everything else. How about a decent middleweight for the SV650 and Monster market?

Did you ever test ride the 900cc version?

It was Buell's middle weight. I really doubt 94HP and 74lbft of torque is anything threatening.

The 1200cc at best did 103HP.


I think the SV, stock, does 70HP.



Unfortunately, many can't see past the basics of displacement.

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by derf

I can agree with what you say on this. Except for one point, the reason that HD exists is to make money, and they want to make more than they already have. They do want to break into the sportbike market, thats why they own buell and MV. they just dont think they can do it with their own name, I also think that they think the HD name on a sport bike will hurt the image with the bad ass biker crowd so they dont want to risk it, but they dont mind introducing a sportish bike under the xr name.

Yes they do need to introduce an american bike under 10k, in fact they need to build a sportster type of bike that the average construction worker can buy, something cheap no frills no nothing, just and engine and 2 wheels. The blast would be the perfect bike, except it will eat into the sportster people who can just barely afford it and instead get crappy loans through HD finance, which is what got them in trouble in the first place.

Again, just my opinion

Honestly, I sell to "the average construction worker" every day. They come in with rolls of bills covered in butt sweat to buy a Harley they have saved for.

They wouldn't buy a lower priced, "no frills, no nothing" bike because everyone would know it was a "no frills, no nothing" bike. The Sportsters are like Kryptonite to most. Dyna frame, Road King, Heritage, or Geezer Glide.

Otherwise, they walk out the door.

[derf]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Dude, haven't you ever heard of the Sportster? $7000 for the 883 version.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/C...jsp#/family/sp

Good luck finding a sporty for MSRP, well now maybe, but a year, 2 years ago they were selling for over 10k, and if you didnt want to pay that much some other poor slob would come in the next day and pay it

[derf]

Originally Posted by FT BSTRD

Honestly, I sell to "the average construction worker" every day. They come in with rolls of bills covered in butt sweat to buy a Harley they have saved for.

They wouldn't buy a lower priced, "no frills, no nothing" bike because everyone would know it was a "no frills, no nothing" bike. The Sportsters are like Kryptonite to most. Dyna frame, Road King, Heritage, or Geezer Glide.

Otherwise, they walk out the door.

Exactly, but that brings me back to the point, HD financed as much as they can and got sucked into a ton of bad finance deals, thats where their finacial troubles are, not selling bikes, they need to price bikes that folks can afford so that HD financial doesnt have to take on bad credit deals

[Homeslice]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Dude, haven't you ever heard of the Sportster? $7000 for the 883 version.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/C...jsp#/family/sp

I didn't know they were so cheap.......my bad.

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by derf

Exactly, but that brings me back to the point, HD financed as much as they can and got sucked into a ton of bad finance deals, thats where their finacial troubles are, not selling bikes, they need to price bikes that folks can afford so that HD financial doesnt have to take on bad credit deals

It's a chicken and egg. They make high priced bikes because lower priced bikes don't sell. They have to finance these high priced bikes to people who can't afford them.

In the end, there are simply not enough buyers to keep the balls spinning at HD. It's a house of cards.